The Blind Spots That Quietly Damage Our Relationships with Jerry Clark

Reza Ghaemi: Hello, hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to the Res Podcast, the show where we have honest conversations about relationship, mental health, personal growth, and the experiences that shape who we become. I'm your host, Reza Gayami, and today we're talking about the things we often fail to recognize within ourselves and how those blind spots can quietly affect our relationships, decisions, and happiness. My guest today is Jerry Clark, a licensed professional counselor, relationship specialist, author, speaker, and marine veteran. Thank you for your service, Jerry. Jerry,

Jerry Clark: Yes, sir, like you.

Reza Ghaemi: Jerry has spent more than 30 years helping individuals, couples, and professional teams uncover the hidden patterns that undermine trust, communication, and connection. He's the author of Blind Spots and Relationships, What I Don't Know, I don't know about myself, and the founder of Build a Better Me and a Better and Build a Better Team. Jerry has experienced life from several unique perspectives, including the battlefield. The corporate boardroom and the counseling chair at seventy nine years old, he continues to demonstrate that personal growth has no expiration date. Jerry, welcome to the Res Podcast.

Jerry Clark: Thanks, Rez. It's a pleasure to be here.

Reza Ghaemi: Thank you so much. Pleasure's mine. I know this show is not about politics or anything like that, but given that you're a Marine, why the hell hasn't Trump finished the job yet?

Jerry Clark: You know, I I think Iran is has been preparing for this for so long and it may have been underestimated. It just seems like everything that happens, there's just something else that that reoccurs that was not expected.

Reza Ghaemi: Mm.

Jerry Clark: And I I followed the war and I and I champion all of our servicemen that are involved and I'm extremely proud of our country and what we stand for. It's a long term future, not just a short term project. And that's what I like. It's it's gonna help my grandchildren, my kids and their kids. So that's what I'm enthused about.

Reza Ghaemi: You know, one day, Jerry, we we really hope for regime change, a free Iran. And Iran, I'm sure you remember when years ago when the Shah was there, we want that Iran to be back. And we want a free

Jerry Clark: Yes, yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Iran where we have relationships that the people, the Iranian people, you know, they were told that they can go into the streets and there was fifty thousand of them that died through the protests, unfortunately, and still the regime is in power and We just pray that one day, one day. But yeah.

Jerry Clark: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You know, it's to me it's about stopping the suffering. And those those folks, like a lot of folks that are involved when their nation's in war, they're suffering horribly, more than we can ever understand or appreciate.

Reza Ghaemi: I know, I know. It's a it's a very sad situation. but let's this show is really about other topics. I just wanted to kind of bring that in there because you're a a veteran and a former Marine and man, that's I I'm and by the way, you look great for seventy nine, Jerry, knock on

Jerry Clark: Well, thanks Rez, but I'm one year older as of today. So I hit the big mark today. Thank you.

Reza Ghaemi: nice. Happy birthday, Jerry. That's amazing. so Jerry, let's begin with the central idea behind your work. So what exactly is a relationship blind spot and how can something we cannot see within ourselves quietly sabotage an otherwise healthy relationship?

Jerry Clark: Riz, I I've discovered over the years that I have so many blind spots. And early on in in my relationship when I first got married, I was an angry young man. I came back from Vietnam after thirteen months and wanted nothing but peace and harmony. I wanted to be the best dad, the best husband in the world, but I was so ill equipped. My emotional maturity was was not available. I had learned to win at all cost, never to surrender, to be right, be in control, and and when I took all of that to my family, it was just horrible. My I wanted my kids to be the best kids and I the the way I raised them was like they were in boot camp and it was you know, I look back on this and it's embarrassing to even say, you know, how how I wanted them to be speaking span, the room spotless. just yes sir, no sir. And although so a lot of that's important, but the way I emphasized it was heartbreaking for them and for me in the long run, but I didn't know it. And that was a blind spot for me. I I didn't know how I was showing up. And the same happened in in in my marriage, after thirteen years we we parted and I still didn't understand or appreciate my contribution to what was going on in the family. I just knew that ha that what made me survive in Vietnam I thought I need to employ in my everyday actions and relationships. And so that marriage failed after thirteen years and I I didn't understand or appreciate what caused it. And that was that was a very sad thing for me. Because, you know, suffering after after divorce continues for you know, forever. It's there's always a a mess up. It's it's a struggle and trying to get back together sometimes creates a lot of havoc.

Reza Ghaemi: Gotcha. so thanks for sharing that very vulnerable type of of story. Now, Jerry, I guess what I want to ask is like how what ultimately you describe some of your characteristics, kind of like that old school, very military-like personality that you had. But is it that you're how do I say this? Is it okay to be taking that, carrying that weight and blaming yourself? Or or or can you kind of say maybe it wasn't all my fault?

Jerry Clark: Well, I I really don't look at it as fault any longer. I was doing what I thought I needed to do at the time, no different than the way my parents raised me and and most parents raise their children. We just look at to me, I I say we look at what we think is is good for the children, good for the family, and that and that's the that's the way that we parent or or try to live in a in that in a family relationship. Even though later on it's easy to discover that perhaps what what I was doing was so ineffective. so inappropriate and cause suffering, cause pain. And I mean not that we didn't have great times together, but in general it caused more pain than than I wish it would have.

Reza Ghaemi: Interesting. 'cause like I've seen, and by the way, like personally, I I come from a parents that just like really treated me nicely most of my life and all that. So I don't have any

Jerry Clark: Great.

Reza Ghaemi: of that sort of that weight that I carry. But when I look at some other folks within my circle and the way their father, for example, treated them, is it is it possible to become stronger as a result of that type of treatment?

Jerry Clark: I think so. I I think there's two ways that it goes, Rez. One, it causes a person to be stronger, to to notice what's going on around them and be sure that they're in tune to what's happening and and act accordingly. But the opposite side of that is to break one's spirit. And and that is the hazard that that I regret because a broken spirit takes away confidence. Self confidence is so important in in our lives, our future, our our our work, our relationships. And and my fear is that in some ways I broke the spirit of of my oldest son and I'll carry that forever. Not that I'm gonna you know beat myself up but but it's just something that because I have that it have had that experience and I see that experience happening in a lot of families I do everything I can to reduce the stress and struggle of of suffering.

Reza Ghaemi: Are you okay to for me to double click a little bit more about your older son that you mentioned or?

Jerry Clark: Yeah, I am. first of all I wanna say that today he is a very prosperous young man with three children and He and I have a relationship where at least we talk four or five times a week, talking about kids, talking about work, talking about finances, just having a an amazing relationship that that didn't start out that way. But I feel like we're so blessed to to have recovered and you know, I I love the grandkids and I see every week and it's just it it really has turned into a a a relationship that early on would not have been possible. He was estranged from our family for almost ten years. And he he just lived on his own and wasn't very prosperous at the time and and he suffered and I suffered because of it. But, you know, the turnaround happened and and he he you know, we just came together and and we saw things differently. Our we we saw things differently than we did before. We had a kinship as opposed to a a harsh relationship. He wanted he had long blonde hair, handsome young man, girls liked it, and being a a Marine, I wanted high and tight. And that was just one of the conflicts that we had and something he did not understand about me and I did not understand about him. That's just a short example.

Reza Ghaemi: Nicely. Got it, got it, got it. Now, Jerry, I actually, this is not about my book or anything, but I recently wrote a book about acceptance because I have bipolar disorder. And it took me many years to accept that. So,

Jerry Clark: Yes.

Reza Ghaemi: what ultimately, you know, this is why it's so important to me, this topic of acceptance. What ultimately made you accept that you maybe were the cause of some of this chaos?

Jerry Clark: That's a that's a great question, Rez. you know, I I divorced after thirteen years of marriage and two years later Connie and I got together and and re I me I remarried and lo and behold the same things began to happen in the relationship. we just began to be fractured and and see things differently. We were built blending a family together and and it was it was hard and so things got rough between us and we made the decision that we needed to to do some counseling and we were in a couples group and I was in a men's group and she was in a women's group. And in that couples group res, the women did not like me. In fact, I didn't like them either. They they call me Mr Wright, Mr. Perfect, Mr Know It All. And and it it just you know, I could not understand how come they were talking to me that way because I saw myself as a good guy, I was a good provider, you know, my family was important, but the blind spots that I had, I was just tripping over the ones that I loved and causing them to be pushed away as opposed to be you know, attracted attracted to me. The it began to sink in that maybe I was controlling. Maybe I was angry, maybe I was too harsh. And and those women changed my life, Res. And you know, I started out really not liking them. Had all kinds of things about them that I didn't want to, you know, be a associated with. But the interesting thing was we'd have a two hour couples group and then we'd all go to dinner afterwards and we'd laugh and joke and cut up at the dinner table and everybody had a good time and so I was sort of confused that they liked me but they could see something in me that I couldn't. But that was what changed my life. All of a sudden I began to see that, ooh, maybe they are correct. I just couldn't hear things that were derogatory about me. I was I was I just had a hard time with that and when I did begin to listen, feedback became the key for me. So when someone said, Jerry you you're loud or you're harsh or you're angry, instead of trying to defend it, I tried to get curious and say, what what am I doing? What's showing up here that that I'm not seeing? And res my my life has transformed since then. I I live mostly at peace And I I love the work that I do and counseling because I don't think it's what I do necessarily. It's what other people begin to see about themselves that causes a difference in their lives and in their families and in their workplace. So that's pretty much what I'm about is reducing that suffering that I know so well and observed in my own family so well.

Reza Ghaemi: Jerry, oftentimes I hear that s people can make these sorts of changes up to a certain age and then when they become at like for example, I don't know, I don't wanna give a number, but they become a little bit more rigid. Do you think that you can sh make these changes and come to these sorts of acceptances at any age, or is there a limit?

Jerry Clark: No, I I think any age is what I've seen. And and the the thing is is what's the catalyst? that causes the change. Sometimes it's divorce, sometimes it's a death, sometimes it's loss of a job, sometimes it's just a fracture in a relationship that that causes someone to want to be different, to have that other person. And so I've seen it from young young folks to much older folks who finally get that aha moment of, my gosh, I've been doing this all along and now I'm about to be alone and and change comes quickly at that point. So the change really is you know b is about the catalyst. What is it that inspires that change? I don't give up. If someone is as old as I am and they're wanting something different in relationships, I want to be I'm going to walk alongside of them to give them everything I can to reduce that suffering.

Reza Ghaemi: Amazing. Now I'm gonna ask you kind of a maybe a difficult question, but if you were to go back, Jerry, and live the life that you live. You lived a very fulfilling life. it brought you to the point where you are now. If you didn't go through that, you wouldn't be here right now in the sense that so would you change anything if you were to go back? I mean

Jerry Clark: You know, I I would think there's a lot of things I would change and hopefully that I would have a better life earlier along. But, you know, fighting was the way I was going through life and I just whether it was traffic or people or my kids, my wife, you know, fighting was that was kind of where I came from. I mean And I learned that all of you know, the biggest part of that through the Marine Corps and and surviving and wanting my comrades to survive. And so if I could do anything, I would I would get out of that survivor mode and see what I could do to live and laugh and love more instead of being so serious about having to be right in control and in charge of all of people that were important to me.

Reza Ghaemi: And at the time, do you think it had anything to do with PTSD or anything like that?

Jerry Clark: Yes, of course I was diagnosed with PTSD. I still struggle a lot, with sleep and dreams and those kinds of things that impede me from relaxing and sometimes challenge me, you know, when I go to bed, that I just don't want those things to to come back.

Reza Ghaemi: I see. But ultimately you you've come to acceptance and and I think d how what what role has acceptance played in your journey?

Jerry Clark: You know, I love that word because it it it just an example, if if I disagree with someone, I don't have to go to the to the mat with them about anything. I've learned to be clear and consistent, not to convince. And in any situation when someone disagrees with me, I like to use gently curious questions to to help them help me understand what's going on with them so that acceptance can be Had by both parties. And I think that is absolutely the key. The resistance, the denial, the defensiveness is what really challenges people and fractures relationships, wanting to be right, wanting to be in control. And that's where acceptance comes. I love your I like your ideas, I like your thoughts, I like your opinion. And I can I can accept it without wanting to change it. And I think that's where acceptance. comes. It's just we're all different.

Reza Ghaemi: Mm-hmm. Jerry, I I I guess kind of related to what we're talking about, you know, this is a topic that is a little bit controversial in relationships and dating advice. Can people truly change? So, in other words, I mean, you changed, you made some positive changes. Personally, I've

Jerry Clark: Yes. Yes.

Reza Ghaemi: made some positive changes. It took me many years to do that. But the point I'm trying to make is like, as a Christian, right. I won't I follow Jesus and I'm like, okay, what would Jesus do? And

Jerry Clark: Yes, sir. Good.

Reza Ghaemi: and in the relationship, right? And so Jesus, he wouldn't judge, for example, people very much. So what I'm trying to say is if if infidelity happens, can you forgive your partner and can you forgive them truly from your heart and just say, listen. You made the mistake and I'm not gonna talk about it anymore. And if they make the changes necessary, you think they can do that? Do you think that somebody can become a better person?

Jerry Clark: Res I see it I see three different scenarios when it comes to something like an affair or an egregious issue between a couple. The first thing that happens is they they divorce immediately. They just walk out on each other. The second thing that happens I see happen is that they stay together the rest of their lives and beat each other up. Never get over it. Just hack and and hurt each other and and bring up the past. And the third is launched from a different platform. Both people looking at what's what was the you know, catalyst to this, what caused this? What was my part? Because generally, you know, and I'm not saying that that that there's you know, fault can be identified to one person. The person who makes the the mistake, absolutely they're at fault. But generally the other person can look at a situation and say, Maybe I should have treated it a little better here or there. And and when people when people can agree that that they want the life that they have created and then and they want the family that they have created. I see it very often that that forgiveness and acceptance can be a part of that. And what I see is they can't go back into that old relationship the way it was. They have to redesign it in a way that that fits for both of them and and they both feel pursued, appreciated, understood, and yet it absolutely can change. and and be better than what it was before, after an affair for example.

Reza Ghaemi: Exactly. Th thank you for I I love that. I love that. That's my opinion as well. And and I'm glad that you you have that same opinion. let's talk about inversion therapy, something you talk about. sort of involves the my understanding is it involves doing the opposite of our automatic impulse. And yeah, so if you could talk about that.

Jerry Clark: one of the first things that I see in inversion therapy I call surrender and win. And in relationships, that I've I've understand and can appreciate that's a must, that I must surrender. Being a marine, that is not in my vocabulary and and I choke every time I say the word until today I can I can be at peace with it. But if if I need to win in a relationship, the other person needs to lose. If I'm right they get to be wrong and and I don't like to lose nor do I like to be wrong. And when I look at their position, you know, put myself in their position, I want them to win. And the more I can make people in my relationship win, the the better my life becomes. And it doesn't mean that I lay down and get run over. I have limits that I set and I think it's very important to have those limits because you know we don't need to be just a given all the time. We need that reciprocation. And that's that's where I see surrender and win. It's a powerful experience when I when I don't have to be right and I can accept someone else's differing opinion and and I in order to do that I have to surrender. But my first inclination is to fight, to defend, to want to to make it make people see it my way. And and it that is so chaotic to th even think about it today.

Reza Ghaemi: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yes. No, that's that's that's quite a transformation. I love that.

Jerry Clark: Yeah. Another example of that, Rez, is sometimes I find myself getting anxious and angry and and the first thing that I do I have to recognize that. And the the idea to me is if I get if I get loud If I get I find myself my heart's beating fast and I want to defend or attack, the first thing I do is lower my eye level with the person I'm with. I subordinate myself instead of raising up and towering down like I'm a reptile of some sort, I I use I try to my best or I do employ my intellect and respond instead of react. And so it's just another example of what's natural is to fight. what's unnatural is to subordinate.

Reza Ghaemi: Let me ask you a kind of like a question that since we're talking about this topic. One time I was with my girlfriend, I I consider my girlfriend to be pretty attractive. and we were at a bar, and of course, we're sitting together at the bar, and this individual, this man, he sees us that we're together. I go to the bathroom, she's at the bar herself, and this man decides to go up to her and you know, flirt and and all that stuff. And when I got back, he wasn't there anymore. And then my girlfriend tells me, yeah, this guy, you know, he comes up and he wants to ask for my n phone number. So a a a very hardwired masculine response or man's response would be to get very

Jerry Clark: Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: angry. How would you deal with that situation if you were to go back, you know, if this happened to you?

Jerry Clark: See I think the first response is is sort of attack or be be aggressive, you know, what the heck's going on here? But but the inversion of that is do I need to be concerned? See, I turn it on myself, not on her or the other man. I turn it on myself and just as gently as I can, do I need to be concerned that someone is gonna steal you away from me or And and so then then the conversation becomes sort of soft and gentle as opposed to her having to defend herself. She didn't do anything wrong. This guy approached her. And and but any time I make a situation about me, I defer I I just completely obliterate the idea of we're gonna fight. Because if it if I'm talking about me, we're not gonna fight. She's not gonna fight. If I'm saying you know, I struggle with the thought that that perhaps someone could steal you from me. And and you know, it's just it's just so diffusing to talk about me instead of him or her and under those circ circumstances.

Reza Ghaemi: Self-awareness, self-awareness and how you react. Yep.

Jerry Clark: Yes, sir. Yes sir.

Reza Ghaemi: Okay. so Jerry, we like to keep the show close to 30 minutes and we're kind of it time flies. this this was very much I don't even know how we 27 minutes, I guess. But I wanted to talk to you about you know, as somebody that's been a Marine, a corporate executive, a counselor, husband. And now you're eighty years old, someone thinking deeply about legacy, you know, after everything you've witnessed, what do you believe people misunderstand most about love and relationships?

Jerry Clark: That's a good question. I I think it's easy to to not look at the other person in a way that that they need to be seen. Sometimes after we meet someone we f we fail to pursue any longer. We fail to make them feel important. We fail to make them feel special. And and so I I really believe that we go to sleep at the wheel. I call it, you know, Rip Van Winkle, you know, I've been asleep a hundred years and and I just let d relations deteriorate as opposed to do what I can do to keep them alive and well and and spontaneous and And I I think generally the the big fracture has to do with communications. We we begin to resent one another for various things that we don't talk through. And I call resentments rust in relationship. And if we don't take care of that those resentments, the relationships failed. But there's so many ingredients, I think, Rez, that that cause us not to be able to continue the relationship like like it begins. And it's it takes a lot of work. Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Hundred percent, you gotta water the plants, Cherry. I just came up with that on my own. okay.

Jerry Clark: I love it.

Reza Ghaemi: So where can people find your book? and then are you on social media, Jerry? Instagram? I'm an Instagram guy. Okay.

Jerry Clark: Yes, I am. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, have a YouTube and all I'm sorry.

Reza Ghaemi: Okay. So I'll I'll definitely tag you. I'll tag you on the the clips I make of this video. I'll tag you as a collab and then you'll it'll go on your page. But where can people

Jerry Clark: Right.

Reza Ghaemi: find your book? Is it on Amazon or

Jerry Clark: It's on Amazon and it's in in most bookstores, blind spots in relationships. What I don't know, I don't know about myself. So it's it's easy to find. And it's a Marine Corps short version, I call it my crayon edition. And for Marines they'd understand that.

Reza Ghaemi: Nice. Amazing. thank you so much for being on the show. Jerry, I'd love to have you on again if maybe we talk about some other topics, but happy birthday to you. any fun plans for the rest of the weekend?

Jerry Clark: Just joining the family. Yeah. Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Okay, amazing. All right, Jerry, I'm gonna hit stop on the recording if just don't go anywhere yet.