Building Healthy Relationships: Red Flags, Self-Awareness & Mental Health with Michael T. Brown

Reza Ghaemi: Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the Res Podcast, a show where we explore the ideas, habits, and conversations that help us grow, think differently, and live more intentionally. I'm your host, Reza Giami. Today I'm joined by Michael Brown, a licensed professional counselor, author, and leadership consultant who has spent more than twenty-five years helping individuals and families build healthier relationships and more successful lives. Michael, welcome to the Res Podcast.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: It's great to be with you. Pleasure.

Reza Ghaemi: Thank you so much. Michael, I I just wanted to first off get into the idea that what does a genuinely healthy romantic relationship look like to you overall?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Great question. You know, I think healthy relationships are made up of healthy individuals. So when an individual, you know, loves themselves, values themselves, when they've built certain amounts of skills personally, then I think they're gonna be able to have a be a part of a healthier relationship. So healthy relationships involve, you know, effective communication. Obviously there needs to be a certain amount of you know connection and camaraderie there. And and I would say, and this can take time where trust is built, you know. And in order to do that, I think you need to have a certain baseline coming into the relationship where the individual, nobody's gonna come in perfect, but come in with you know some of these boxes checked.

Reza Ghaemi: Beautiful. Okay. So people always say, work on yourself, work on yourself, right? It's like like the it's one of those gimmicky you know, jargons, I would say. If sorry to go there, but what is the whole work on yourself thing? So does that mean that you gotta pause dating while you work on yourself? Because look, Michael Brown, I'm always working on myself till the day I die. So then what's your take on the whole idea that, I'm not gonna date now because I just got out of a bad relationship, I'm gonna work on myself and then I'm gonna date. In my opinion, I think you should work on yourself all the time. So what's your take there? If somebody's like feeling a little bit lack of confidence or you know what I mean?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah. Yeah, I I think I think you work on ourselves as cliche for

Reza Ghaemi: Cliche is the word I was looking yeah.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: but it's cliche for a reason. Okay. Oftentimes cliches are are are cliche

Reza Ghaemi: Ha ha ha.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: for a reason 'cause there's a lot of fact and a lot of truth in it. And but I think there are levels to it, you know? No, not everyone necessarily needs to pause dating. However, I I think the results matter. So if somebody keeps running into certain things in relationships, you know, and they realize that, you know, they're not in the healthiest space, it's okay to take a time out and say, you know what? before I keep running into these same issues, maybe I need to pause and and do some internal work. To look at our thoughts, our words, our actions, our reactions. So it's not that everybody needs to just completely pause dating. I don't know that it's a one-size-fits-all type scenario. However, I think we can navigate this and judge a lot of this by the results that we seek. If we notice that if one person is the common denominator, every time they date somebody else, it's that's worth looking at. You know, to say what's

Reza Ghaemi: Uh-huh.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: going on with me internally that, you know, I might keep running into in different relationships. So I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. You know, sometimes we can better ourselves through the relationship as long as we're transparent and if we're willing to be self-aware. and make the changes as we go. Like for example, if somebody's in a relationship and say, hey, you know what? I don't like when you talk to me that way. That doesn't mean we have they need to go on a sabbatical and go work on themselves. They may just need to, you know, change and adapt and adjust as they move forward.

Reza Ghaemi: Beautiful. what's the number one pattern you see with folks that don't have good self awareness and how should they develop better self awareness? Because if I wanna if I you know what I mean? Do you think self awareness is key when when you're trying to work on yourself? Yeah.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, the problem if you know, there's a spiritual saying that says pride goes before destruction. Right. And there's a healthy amount of pride that I think we should have in being able to say, you know, we've accomplished certain things, we have certain skills. But if we're too if we're not self aware, sometimes that that There's a sense of there's nothing wrong with me. And we know there's a term in society that we that's that's used a lot nowadays called narcissism, right? And one of the one of the most difficult problems about, you know, if you're working with somebody who has narcissistic tendencies, is that there's nothing to work on because everybody else is the problem, right? So so narcissism in many ways,

Reza Ghaemi: Yeah.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: right, is the opposite of self-awareness. So we need to be able to say, you know what? I got some issues, you may have some issues, all guys' children got some issues. But if we are willing to call out some things within ourselves, then that's less work that the other person has to do. And that requires a certain amount of humility and coachability. You know, I often say, you know, being right is oftentimes overrated. Getting things right is where it's at. And relationships can help us do that. It's the gymnasium where we can work some things out if we're willing and open enough to to doing that work.

Reza Ghaemi: Michael Brown, I don't know why I keep saying your last name. I apologize. Michael,

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Hey, it works, man. It works. Don't apologize.

Reza Ghaemi: why do people repeatedly choose partners who aren't right for them?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Mm. Wow, that's the sixty-four thousand dollar question there is. You're not messing around tonight. That's good. That's good. You know, I I I think some of it has to do with Childhood sometimes i is is what's been modeled to us. Some of it has to do with some of the work that we talked about earlier, right? You know, that that's not been done. For some people it may be, you know, they're a bit green when it comes to relationships, you know, where we may come in with unrealistic expectations. Some people say, you know, I just thought everybody was respectful. Or I would never treat somebody like that. So when they get hit with that for the first time, right, you know, that can be daunting. And a lot of people put on their project management hat, Rez, when it comes to relationships. I can change them or I can fix them. And only to realize, right, that I'd say the most lasting change is internal. so I think if we come to a relationship and we haven't seen healthy relationships modeled in front of us, if we haven't, if we don't, if we're not decisive enough, when we see unhealthy. There needs to be a certain amount of decisiveness when we see unhealthy. And then if we put it out there and say, hey, I don't like how you talk to me or treat me, or if then you notice abusive tendencies, you know, or destructive tendencies, is the other person willing to change? Are they are they willing to put the work in to make the change? If that other person's not willing to change, then sometimes that's when we just need to plan our exit strategy.

Reza Ghaemi: And and maybe hire a breakup coach. Because I'm and I mean that for real because you know how it's hard to break up. Like especially well, I don't want to say especially with women, but I feel like you know, what is that the term that when when like people get attached to like a a really bad person, there's like that syndrome. There's there's a syndrome. It's the the

Michael T. Brown, LPC: yeah, d attachment issues. Anxious attachment or

Reza Ghaemi: something like that. but basically Yeah. Codependency, yep. yeah.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Codependency. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can be hard because these things can be complicated. It's not

Reza Ghaemi: Mm-hmm.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: always a hero or a villain. Sometimes

Reza Ghaemi: Mm-hmm.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: there's admirable qualities in that person, right? And we can get caught up in that cycle of makeup to breakup. But if you notice that cycle continues to repeat, it's okay to Make the changes and see if you if you're having trouble making the changes. Sometimes relationship counseling can help. Sometimes we need help.

Reza Ghaemi: 100%, 100%.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: so I I'm wondering. So when dating someone new, let's let's talk about some some red flags. I love this idea. So what are some because look, none of us are perfect. We're all imperfect creatures of God, right? Right. It takes I think it takes a mature person to to realize that, in my opinion. So, but what are some red flags that can't be ignored? What are s what are what imperfections should we be more willing to accept, Michael?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah, one big one I would say is kindness. people who are kind in nature, right? If you agree, are they are they people that you know are caring and compassionate? two things really st two other things really stand out. One is, you know, compatibility. We need to be aligned in enough things. and if there's not alignment when it comes to values, morality. Finances, hobbies, you know. There just needs to be enough chemistry and enough hobbies there. So if there's not alignment there, I'd say that's a that's a red flag. And some people say, Yeah. Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Wait, wait, let's double click a little bit on that. Because like, for example, when you said values,

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: so like from your twenty five years of experience counseling people, what pers like, for example, if if if somebody's a Republican versus Democrat, that's an example, right? Like they can't

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah, that's not to right well, that's not to say that they can't get along or have a great marriage because they can. Sometimes some some of that has to do with okay, you know, we look at issues differently, but you know one similar value could be the two t two different political parties may have different ways of getting there. Right? Somebody say might say, I think we should be more helpful, or another person say, I I'm more on the side of smaller government, right? We can agree with different We could have similar values but may have different approaches. Right? So it's not that a Republican or a Democrat or, you know, any other political party can't get along or have a good relationship. How do they treat each other along the way? Are we respectful? Do we have enough things that we're aligned on that help us navigate that? But if they're just staunch and it's just, you know, what no way around it, if there's just big ticket items that we can't agree on, that's worth looking at. Like if one person, for example, says, you know, they're a person of faith, another person might not might not, you know, lean towards that. Or, you know, might not maybe be an atheist, for example. does that mean they can't have a healthy relationship? Not necessarily. but they may they would need to have a lot of other things they agree on. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, no, you're good.

Reza Ghaemi: Okay. And and I I kind of interrupted you while you were elaborating on on this stuff. So, you know, if you Yep.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah, so so compatibility is one. And then I would also say is workability. Somebody that we can work with. are they good in negotiations?

Reza Ghaemi: Okay. Okay. What what do you mean by that?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah, can can we negotiate? Well, you say, you know what, by the we're at an impasse, maybe we have an argument, we're not seeing eye to eye, but by the time we leave out of this car, we're gonna we need to get to an agreement. Just like we have to do on our jobs, right? Or you might not we're not gonna agree with everybody, but you know, hey guys, at the end of this meeting, you know, we all we all need to be on the same page here. So if you can find somebody if if if you can't work with somebody, if they're not if they don't play well in the sandbox, if you will, you know, and if they if you're not aligned on values and if they're From a character standpoint, if there's not enough alignment, you know, respect, kindness, communicators. if we're missing on a lot of those big ticket items, I say that's some red flags. Some people steam right past that because they look good. But man, she's so fine. I gotta. We'll figure out the rest of that stuff later, right? And and you know But no, we got no, I mean we get it. We're gonna be attracted. We're gonna be attracted. That's okay.

Reza Ghaemi: Yeah, especially men.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: You need to check that box too, right? There needs to be some some physical attraction there. But also to you know, after you get past that, to have some of these items, I say.

Reza Ghaemi: Do you see any patterns among among men versus women, like in terms of the mistakes that like you just mentioned, like perhaps men are is it okay? Is it is it okay to say both ways?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Think that I think that can go both ways, but I but by and large, I think it's safe to say men are highly visual creatures, right? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that can go both ways. No,

Reza Ghaemi: Yeah. Yep. That's what I was gonna. Yeah. Okay. So so you're saying men men should be less visual in in terms of

Michael T. Brown, LPC: no, I I I I don't want to overly generalize there. Because at the end of the day, there's the physical attraction part has its has its has its place for men and for women. So I'm not gonna overly generalize that. but at at the end of the day. After we get past the visuals, what what's the character? Where's the skills? Where's the desire, right? To be on the same

Reza Ghaemi: Mm-hmm.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: page and partnership. Partnership to move. A single mindset, right, may look a little different than a partnership mindset. Single says if pizza or tacos, like whichever one I want. But in relationship, do we care how the other person feels? Are we trying to meet them where they are? Is there empathy? Trying to put ourselves in other people's shoes?

Reza Ghaemi: Beautiful. Beautiful things that Michael is saying. I hope everybody's listening closely. Michael, what is the biggest mistake people make when trying to build a lasting relationship? And I know you covered some of them right now with the red flags, but I just wanna as

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: we're you know what I mean?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah. I would say dating the person they hope to have versus dating the person they actually have. The project manager mentality, right? That if that I can change them through my charm, or if I just love them enough, they might start treating me better. You know, and and those things can can have an impact. We can love people and get, you know, a good response, but much of change is internal. And I believe it was Maya Angela who said, you know, when people show you who they are, believe them. So some of we just need to believe what we see, not just what we hope to see. And if the two don't line up, do you have somebody you can work with? And it that's that's challenging, right? To form a partnership and change without losing who we are fundamentally. That's where the compatibility and the alignment needs to come into place. Some of that is just magical, right? You meet somebody and there's good chemistry and it just flows. I remember one of my clients told me that one time, Rez. She said, you know, she was dating somebody new and she said, you know, it's just not as hard work as it used to be. Like, you know, some things just seems to flow a little bit better. And some of that just is, you know, personality driven. That we're in a that the personalities mesh.

Reza Ghaemi: Hundred percent, hundred percent. just lastly wanna get into some mental health. Since you do mental health counseling and not just relationship counseling, right? You okay. mental health, what would you say when when it comes to mental health? this is what I was gonna ask. I'm sorry. like because a lot of people have therapists, a lot of people have counselors, do you have some advice for For people to get the most out of their counseling sessions, like, you know what I mean? Like, cause cause

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: like for for example, myself, like it it like I don't know how to be a good client for my therapist sometimes. So what are some strategies or tips for people to actually get better from therapy instead of just you know what I mean?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah. Very great. That's a great question. I think some of it has to do with the skill and the ability of the therapist. So I encourage people to see if they can give you a free consultation. A lot of therapists will do that, a free 15-minute conversation, consultation. And come up with some questions. Come in with, you know, hey, here's here here's a little bit about me. How might you approach that? Ask them some questions. Yeah,

Reza Ghaemi: Mm.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: if we go into come into town, if I come into Toronto, right, I may do a Yelp search or see what's what the best restaurants are. Some of we just read the reviews. You know, kick the tires, check, you know, and and so I I would say that and be willing to Work on defensiveness. It's hard coming into therapy sometimes, hearing things about ourselves that might challenge us or push us. But if you find a therapist who is willing to work with you on that, who you believe has a good heart and is willing to help you get the results that you seek, it goes a long way. And that doesn't mean bad therapist. It doesn't mean necessarily bad client. Sometimes it's not the best fit. And that's okay too. Sometimes you have to get through a few and and it's always cool, Red. Sometimes I'll meet people and they'll be like, That's like, you know what? You're my fourth or fifth therapist, but I didn't give up. I was like, Wow, man, that's cool. Like they didn't give up on the process because there wasn't a the perfect fit. And oftentimes that that client will tell me, I'll say, you know, how was your p previous experiences? Did you did you gain from it? And a lot of times they say yes. Sometimes it's seasonal, right? Where we may need to we may need different things in a in a therapist for whatever season we're in. But ultimately the results matter. They need to help you reach your goals. I mean, there's no way around it. We need to, you know, yeah, so I'll I'll leave it at that.

Reza Ghaemi: Thank you. beautiful.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Thank you so much. very helpful for me to hear that. in terms of I just wanna ask you one thing that's kinda been on my mind. I know we all maybe have some mental health, you know, going on. Do

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Challenges, yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: challenges. do you are you in the of the the camp or the you know, the camp that think or believes that or we should be open about our mental health? to other people or is that a private thing? So I know for example, ADHD is like a

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Great question, yes. Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: cool thing. Like everybody has ADHD now, not to not to sound insensitive. But when it comes to other mental health things like bipolar or should people be open to to that about sharing that or is that heavy? Or is that like, dude, that's heavy. You know what I mean?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Great question. Yeah. Yeah. No, I you know, well I'll give you this example. So in let's say group counseling, for example. Right? Let's say I'm working with group of people. And Rez, I may say to everyone, everything we say in here is confidential. Now, the truth of the matter is, with this. But I what I'll add to that is don't say anything that you might not feel comfortable with somebody else repeating. I can't guarantee confidentiality. So A person who's transparent and is honest about their story and their testimony, and that's what they're about, that's their superpower in many ways. Yeah. To say, hey, look, this is my struggle, this is my challenge, this is what how I'm learning, this is how I'm growing. With that being said, I think we also need to be mindful of who our audience is. You know, so yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Wait, wait, can you tell me what you mean by that? Yeah.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Meaning similar to the example I used in group counseling, you know, We can't there's a spiritual teaching that says, don't give your pearls to swine. And what I take from that spiritual teaching is not everybody can handle something that's valuable. So if you're sharing about yourself, I think there needs to be a certain amount of right, you know, trust that you would hope that you're just not sharing, telling all your business to somebody who might not be able to handle that well. Does that make sense?

Reza Ghaemi: Yes.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: So sometimes we may need to, some people are just gonna be more open and transparent than others. So there's not a one size fits all. That's just what they're about. And they need to stay in that lane. But there's also, I think we need to be use discretion in what we share. and yeah, I'll leave it at that. Some it's okay to also use discretion. Yeah. Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Yes. For sure, for sure. I think for me it it frees up a lot of mental RAM if I'm honest with people and if I'm you

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah. Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: know what I mean? It like you know how people that are just like always worried about what other people think? They're always like in their head. And

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Right, right. Right.

Reza Ghaemi: so for me, it's not like it's not necessarily that I'm trying to be unloading my problems to people by being open. It's more like

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Reza Ghaemi: just makes me liberated more. W what's your take on that?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: And and not only can it liberate you, it can liberate others. And for some people, Res, that's their calling. That's their gift. Yeah. And it's not so much about discretion for them. Cause they're like, you know what? I don't care who hears it. This is my story, and I want to help people. And it's freeing. So yeah, I get that. Yeah. Right?

Reza Ghaemi: Make sense then to you?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Yeah. And but that's not gonna be everybody's calling.

Reza Ghaemi: No, no. Yeah.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: That's not a one size fits all. But every person it needs to tap into what they feel led and called to do. Yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Michael Brown, it's been a real pleasure to have you on. Now, I know like

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Likewise.

Reza Ghaemi: you're a mental health counselor, relationship counselor. Are you public about where people can find you? And like so

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I do leadership consulting. I do, you know, public speaking as well, as long as as as well as counseling. So yeah, they can find me on my website, Brownsleadership dot com. Brownsleadership dot com

Reza Ghaemi: Rounds with an S.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: with an S. Yep, Brownsleadership dot com. And also I'm on X, formerly known as Twitter, at MT Brown ninety eight, and they can find me on LinkedIn. And yeah, I'm out here, man.

Reza Ghaemi: You had said it all about IG.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: I'm on there s periodically, but I really don't publish that too much yet.

Reza Ghaemi: Not an IG person.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: I d personally but not professionally, I don't have too much on there. Yeah, yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Okay. I okay. I see, I see. Just 'cause if I make a clip I you don't want me to tag you on IG?

Michael T. Brown, LPC: no no no no. Yeah, I I need to I need to work on my I got I got an IG account but it's not counseling related. So I mean it to get my own personal but yeah I'm I'm all for it. We can talk about that, yeah.

Reza Ghaemi: Got it, got it. We'll we'll talk offline. and then what else was I gonna say? I'd love to have you on another show if you if you accept, and then we'll talk about some other things. But Michael Brown, thank you so much for you said so many things that that I that I hope people listen to and walk away with and implement in their in their lives. it was really a big pleasure to have you on the show.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Thank you for having me and Rez. I appreciate you sharing this platform and for the work that you're doing, man. You're putting a lot of great content out here. Keep up the good work. Yes, sir.

Reza Ghaemi: Thank you so much, Michael. I'm gonna hit stop on this.

Michael T. Brown, LPC: Indeed.